Happy Weekend, WG2E-Land!
It’s time for our next Ruth Harris Report…Part Three in her Series on Editors and Editing.
You can catch the first part of this fabulous and informative series right here:
And the second here:
Take it away, Ruth…
This is the third part of the RH Report series on editors and editing. We’ll cover getting references, sample edits, whether the writer is compelled to accept the editor’s suggestions and, now that plagiarism has been in the news lately, whether a writer can feel secure about not having his/her ideas stolen.
Do you provide references?
Sherrie Holmes: Yes, references are on my Web site and I can provide additional references on request.
Matt, The Edit Dude: I have testimonials on my website and I would be willing to put potential clients in touch with authors I have previously worked with.
Meghan Ward: Most writers ask me for a sample edit instead of references, but I’m happy to provide references. I also have testimonials from authors I’ve worked with on the editing page of my website.
Do you offer sample edits?
Jodie Renner: Yes. It’s important to get a sample edit from several different editors. Many editors offer a 10-page free sample edit, or will edit several pages or your first chapter for a small fee. You should get at least 5 pages of your work edited as a sample.
Be sure to send each editor you’re considering the same chapter—and your original, not one another editor has already gone through! This way you can see how each editor would handle your work. Also, if your spelling and grammar skills are a little rusty, get that aspect of the sample edit checked over by someone you know who’s good at that.
It’s important to be open to the possibility that your novel is not yet ready for the copyediting phase, as it may have some “big-picture” issues that need to be addressed and fixed first. It would be a waste of money to pay for copyediting when whole chapters need to be rewritten, rearranged, or even deleted, and your plot and characters might need to undergo fairly drastic changes, in order to make your characters more multidimensional and charismatic, your dialogue more natural-sounding, and your novel more compelling and sellable for the genre.
Sherrie Holmes: Yes, within reason. A few pages, yes. Fifty pages, no.
Meghan Ward: Yes, usually about 10 pages.
Matt, The Edit Dude: I ask for a sample to edit on full-length manuscripts. This helps both parties decide whether or not we will make a good team.
Does an author have to accept all your edits?
Matt, The Edit Dude: I can’t make someone accept all of my edits. If an author is uncomfortable with a suggestion, I’m willing to discuss other options.
Sherrie Holmes: Absolutely not. I’ll give them a professional edit, but they are the ultimate decision maker. It’s their manuscript, so they have the final say. I do strongly caution, however, that ignoring advice on critical issues may jeopardize their chances of getting published. I want the writer to understand that our goals are mutual. I’m not the enemy. I’m here to help. That’s what they’re paying me for.
Jodie Renner: No, the author always has the last word – they’re the writer, after all! That said, I do expect them to accept all my spelling and grammatical corrections, and I hope they’ll take most of my style advice, as I do know the style and pacing expectations for the genres I work with. Also, as an author, you’re paying for the expertise of a professional freelance editor, so it’s to your advantage to seriously consider all their suggestions. If you reject any, be sure it’s for a good reason, and not just because it’s how you wrote it in the first place. Also, as your freelance editor, I represent the reader, so if something confuses me, it’s very likely that it will confuse many of your readers, too.
Authors have come back to me later and said things like, “My agent (or acquiring editor) also said I should condense or delete chapter 4, as it didn’t drive the plot forward or advance characterization. I should have listened to you when you said the same thing!” Or “I’ve had readers contact me to take issue with the very thing you flagged. I guess I should have listened to your advice on that.”
I’ve had one or two occasions where the writer rejected important changes, which resulted in an amateurish manuscript full of errors and sloppy writing. In one case, the author didn’t speak English well and didn’t understand the North American idiom and casual, everyday expressions. They insisted on keeping it in stilted language and awkward phrasing, so I asked them to take my name off the credits for the book, as I didn’t want my name associated with the final product. Needless to say, I would not work with that author again.
Meghan Ward: An author not only does not have to accept all my edits, but shouldn’t. Writing is subjective. I would hope an author would accept most of my copyedits, but some authors may prefer not to put commas before coordinating conjunctions because they want the narrative to have a fast-paced feel. That’s a style choice.
As far as developmental edits, I make my suggestions in comments that the author can either follow or ignore. I do all line edits using Word’s Tracking Changes, too, so again, the author can choose to accept or reject individual edits.
I’m worried about plagiarism. If I send you my manuscript how do I know no one will steal my ideas?
Meghan Ward: I have a freelance editing contract that I’m happy to sign for anyone who is concerned about plagiarism. The author signs it, too, which guarantees that he/she will complete payment for my editing services within thirty days of completion of the project. But I’ve never heard of an editor stealing an author’s ideas. It’s usually other authors who steal authors’ ideas.
Sherrie Holmes: I hear this question all the time, but the reality is that that chances of this actually happening are pretty slim. For one thing, I don’t discuss client manuscripts with others. For another, I have so many plot ideas floating in my head that I don’t need to steal from a client. Besides, that’s just plain wrong. This seems to be a universal fear of newbie writers and a nonexistent fear of experienced writers. If it were as rampant as some fear, nobody would enter writing contests, join a critique group, or hire an editor! As a writing contest judge for over 20 years, I’ve come across many manuscripts that had similar plots, but each story was so unique as to render it totally different from similar plots.
Matt, The Edit Dude: I suppose there is no way to know that for certain, but it is a matter of being professional and ethical. I also think that if an editor was stealing ideas from clients, it wouldn’t take long for them to acquire a negative image.
You can find out more about our editors at their websites—
Sherrie Holmes: http://www.holmesedit.com
Jodie Renner: http://www.jodierennerediting.com/
Matt, the edit dude: http://theeditdude.com/
Meghan Ward: http://www.meghanward.com/editing
Next time, in the fourth and final part of the Editors & Editing series, our editors will answer questions about the details of manuscript submission, how much time to allow for the editing process and how much it will cost.
Until then, I want to thank our editors for their time and for sharing their expertise.
It’s Your Turn, WG2E-Land: Let us know your thoughts and questions when it comes to Editors and Editing…
The Best of Editors and Editing Wishes — Ruth Harris
NYTimes Bestselling Author
These sound like good editors to me. My two editors: the first one I use for my YA stories, I know through a romance association and know other authors who have used her services and are now published. My second editor is a published non-fiction author and friend of mine, whom I’ve come to know through the same association. They are both different in what they do for me, but I like them both, and get on with them both.
Have been gone for a couple of days and couldn’t reply earlier. Julie, you bring up a good point about editors. “One size fits all” doesn’t necessarily apply to editors. Some, of course, are adept at editing all genres, but it’s to your advantage to find one knowledgable in your specific genre for a really good edit.
That said, I have found that having your work CRITIQUED (as opposed to edited) by someone outside your genre can sometimes reveal issues that may be invisible to those in your genre. I belong to 2 critique groups: mixed-genre and historical romance. I get the most benefit from critiques done by my romance group because that’s my genre, but critiques from my mixed group often surprise my by catching little things missed by the other group. I’ll always advocate using an editor and critique group experienced in your genre as your primary resource, but you can sometimes find value from critiques done by experienced critiquers outside your genre.
Julie—thanks for your comment & for pointing out that, when it comes to editors & editing, one size doesn’t fit all! Different editors have different expertise to share.
I’m running a giveaway on my blog today so if you’d like a free book—it’s a romance set in an African animal orphanage—do drop by & leave your email address in the comments. You’ll also find writing tips from Zadie Smith and an inside look at America’s richest women & what it’s like to date a model.
http://ruthharrisblog.blogspot.com/
Hey all, great perspectives!
Developing a comfortable partnership with an editor is key to success. Love Meghan’s comment about commas sometimes being a style choice as well. Important to let the author’s personality shine through. Good stuff!
Monica—Thanks! Letting the author’s personality shine through is a crucial part of the editor’s job.
When I was tradpubbed, the style sheets differed from house to house. Commas & other usage are definitely a matter of style.
“Important to let the author’s personality shine through.” Absolutely essential, Monica! Thanks for your great comment.
Monica, this is an issue I keep in mind when editing a client’s MS. It’s sometimes hard to remember that it’s the client’s book, not mine! LOL! So I usually preface my comments with “You might consider rewording this because” or “Are you sure you want to give this impression?” In other words, as you said, “let the author’s personality shine through.”
I did have one client who so assiduously accepted all my edits without question that I had to be very careful that HER voice, not mine, came through, because she truly had a delightful voice. But we both had a hearty laugh when she blithely accepted one of my editorial comments at face value and incorporated it into the MS, not realizing it was just my comment on her word choice. She’d written a scene in her historical romance where the heroine wore a corset, and my comment in the margin was that she might want to check the etymology of the word “corset” vs. the more correct “stays.” I’d seen corset used in a humorous way when referring to corpulent men whose corsets creaked when bowing over a lady’s hand, but, as I advised her, the more proper term was “stays” for ladies.
When the MS came back to me for a second edit, I nearly fell off my chair laughing, because she’d rewritten the sentence to say “She donned her stays-for-ladies.”
Monica, I remember in a fiction workshop I took back when I was doing my MFA, a student pointed out that some commas were missing in another student’s work, and the teacher said, “But you know you don’t have to use them, right?” The rules differ for fiction/memoir and academic texts/nonfiction books. Fiction and memoir can break some of the rules and experiment as long as it doesn’t detract from the story. It makes me crazy when someone adds the Oxford comma to my submissions to my writers’ group. Just because the Chicago Manual of Style uses the Oxford comma doesn’t mean I have to use it in my personal essays. It’s a style choice – sometimes the publisher’s, but usually the author’s.
Style varies from house to house, too. Random House provides authors a style sheet; so does S&S and so does StMartinsPress. They are not the same. I even wonder if different editors at the same house might choose different styles. I wouldn’t be surprised. How do I know? I’ve been published by all three.
Thanks so much for interviewing the four of us, Ruth, and for all your hard work in compiling our answers into three interesting and informative blog posts!
I’m making a list of other good editors to refer clients to when I’m too busy to take on any more or I don’t edit in their genre. I’m adding Sherrie, Matt, and Meghan to this resource list of freelance fiction editors, and if anyone else knows of any good freelance fiction editors, please pass their names on to me so I can add them to my referral list.
Thanks a lot!
Jodie Renner, j.renner.editing@hotmail.com
Thanks so much, Jodie. I’m thrilled to have met some other great editors, too, thanks to Ruth! I’ll keep you in mind for referrals as well.
And yes, I provide testimonials and references!
My response for the first question doesn’t seem to be there, so here it is:
Jodie Renner: Potential clients can read all the testimonials on my website and contact the authors directly through their contact information under the testimonial. If their contact info is missing or you would like more references, email me and I’d be glad to give you names and email addresses of lots of former or current writer clients.
Thanks again for doing this, Ruth!
Jodie
Jodie, thanks for stopping by! One of the first things a writer should do when looking for an editor is to check references—an essential first step in the process of deciding which editor(s) to trust with your work.
Thanks for sharing this information. The more we know, the better we are to make the best choices for us.
Diane—thanks for your comment. My goal is to provide as much clear & reliable information as possible to help guide writers through the steps toward publication.
Diane said: “The more we know, the better we are to make the best choices for us.”
Excellent comment, Diane! This is absolutely true. I think this series about editors has been the most beneficial for letting potential clients know what editing actually entails. As well, it also gives editors a chance to let you know what we expect from clients. This has been such an excellent series. Big thanks to Ruth Harris for assembling this information and disseminating it to the masses!
Good solid info. Thanks Ruth!
Anne—Thanks go to the editors for taking the time to explain what they do & what writers should expect.
Yes, thanks, Ruth! And Anne, it was a pleasure to be able to join with the other esteemed editors in this series and voice our thoughts and opinions.
Hi, Ruth!
Thanks for another great post, and thanks again for asking me to take part in this project!
Matt—Thanks for taking the time to answer all my questions. Your input is very helpful & will guide writers along the editorial process.
Matt, one of the things I liked was the wide variety of replies from the editors who participated in this. While we all agreed on the basic issues, it was interesting to see how each of us approached the issues and applied a response based on how we edit. For instance, Jodie and I give detailed, wordy replies. You and Meghan give terse, concise replies. Neither one is better than the other. It just means we approach editing in different ways., and it gives the future client a better choice in matching their writing style and method of learning to the right editor. A win-win all the way around.
Thanks for this, Ruth. Another good one!
Thanks, Alicia!
Alicia, I join you in thanking Ruth. This is a great series and one I hope will benefit writers.
Great three-part series, Ruth! I’m not at the point where my manuscript needs an editor yet, but this has given me a good idea what to look for. I’m especially relieved to know that most editors will supply a sample edit, which, for me, would be one of the best ways to decide. The Preeditors & Editors site is a great resource, too. Thanks to the four editors elucidating the process.
Debra—Thanks! Glad you got some useful info out of the blog. I tried to think of questions writers who are looking for editors would ask. Happily for me, the editors were generous & forthcoming in their replies. Not to forget that they are all talented & very experienced so definitely know what they are talking about!
Debra, editors love the opportunity to help potential clients make the right choice when selecting an editor. This has been a wonderful opportunity to not only answer questions, but also to let potential clients know what to expect from an editor and what an editor expects from clients. I probably sound like a broken record in that respect, but I have found that new clients generaly have no idea what the editing process entails, so there is always something of a juggling and negotiating process involved when an editor and client come together for the first time. This was a great opportunity to give the editor’s side of the story and demystify the editing process for writers!
Fellow editor here. Loved all the answers. Very professional.
When I first started out it bothered me when writers would reject changes I deemed important, now I just advise and move on. I feel freer now. Lol. I can only do so much; in the end it’s their work. So, basically, I agree with the consensus.
Lauren—Thanks for the kind words. As a former Big 6 editor & a TradPubbed NYT bestselling author, I’ve worked on both side of desk. My goal for this series was to lay out—particularly for writers who are starting out—a clear outline of what the editing process is like, what it entails & what to expect.
Lauren,
It can be frustrating when writers ignore our suggestions, but I agree with you. It’s their work, and they have to do what feels right for them. And there may be reasons they make certain choices that aren’t immediately apparent to us.
I want to add in response to Sherrie’s response to Ruth’s question about plagiarism (whew!) that I HAVE had my own work plagiarized in a writing workshop. I discovered it when that woman’s book was published, and there wasn’t much I could do about it because it’s very difficult to prove copyright infringement in court unless large sections are taken word for word. I still freely share my work with with writers and editors I trust, but I never post my work online unless it’s been previously published. Plagiarism among writers isn’t common, but it can happen. And yet I agree with Matt – if a freelance editor plagiarized his clients, he would ruin his reputation pretty quickly.